So I always enjoy conversations that I have no earthly idea how to describe. And today’s fits into that mold. It’s a conversation with my colleague Ross Douthat. He’s the author of “Believe: Why Everyone Should Be Religious,” a book I enjoyed very much, even though quite a bit of it. I had some questions about. And he’s the host of the new and really excellent New York Times Opinion podcast “Interesting Times” — very interesting times, in fact, where he has been interviewing people on the modern American. And this is a conversation about belief, as it is intertwined with the Trump administration and with this moment of politics, return of political mysticism and the belief as it operates in our lives. Ross’s argument that we should all that I should be an organized religion, and me talking about some things I did not expect to be talking about on today’s show. As always, my email at nytimes.com. Ross Douthat, welcome to the show. it is a pleasure to be here. So last year, after the first assassination attempt on Donald Trump, you wrote about Trump as a man of destiny that he was, quote, a figure touched by the gods of fortune in a way that transcends the normal rules of politics. How are you thinking about that now. Well, there were other passages in that column that are worth emphasizing. But yeah, I stand by that reading of the Trump phenomenon. I think one of the ways in which my sense of politics generally has changed over the course of the Trump era is just I have more appreciation for weird forces that are outside, certainly outside the control of people who write about politics. You can’t have lived through the Trump era as a conservative columnist or newspaper writer, and not have the sense of how fundamentally unimportant columnists are to what happens in American politics. Consistent it’s a consistent exercise in humility. It is. Well, but even but even beyond that, I think and I both grew up in a period that was, I think, reasonably described as a kind of time out from Grand historical dramas. It was not the end of history in a totalizing sense, but the kind of Francis Fukuyama view of the post-cold war era as one that had a certain kind of predictability and order and history under control. History felt under control. And the reality is that much of human history is just not under control in that way. And there are forces that move through history generally, forces that move through history that are of hard to predict and assess. But I do think often they are connected to specific personalities, and there is some kind of marriage between. Particular personalities and particular moments. And the idea of a man of destiny. A great man of history is a useful way of thinking about that when it happens, as I think it has happened with Donald Trump, the rise of populism, the crackup of the liberal order, and so on. The reason I laughed at the outset is that it’s important to stress that someone can be a man of destiny and be bad, right. Someone can be a great man of history and be worth opposing. You can look back at Napoleon and say, man, he was above and beyond in terms of historical forces and also root for Wellington at Waterloo. That’s O.K. How does the sense that Trump is a man of destiny. Because I agree with you. And I think understanding the interpretation of Trump is somehow mystic is very important to understanding his relationship now with the right. But specifically, how do you think it has changed the way his staff and his allies treat him. I mean, I think that it is very hard to go through the drama that Trump himself personally went through in the world that ran. I mean, we can go back further, but let’s just say the world that ran from January 6 through his return to power. And if you’re on his side through that story, not come away with the feeling that you were moving with the wave of history. For people in Trump’s circle, this sense of 1, 1, there’s just a sense that it doesn’t matter what the polls say or the naysayers say. Certainly doesn’t matter what, squishy New York Times’ conservatives say, right, they saw the bottom. Trump was disgraced and ruined and persecuted, and he was going to be sent to jail. And then the next thing Assassin’s bullets were missing him by a hair’s breadth. And he was making this incredible, unprecedented historical comeback. And having lived through that, I think it’s hard to be swayed by people saying, hey, guys, your poll numbers are not looking so great. This tariff rollout, not that well thought out. What are the implications of sending people to Salvador without due process. Those are normal, quotidian sounding objections to administration policy. And I think, at least for some people caught up in the Trump phenomenon, they just seem incommensurate to the reality that you’re like riding, riding a historical wave. But I don’t think it’s just the external world and its judgment of Donald Trump. And you can tell me if you think this is wrong. But I think one of the biggest differences between Trump one and Trump 2 is that in Trump one, his own staff, the people who surrounded him were perfectly comfortable thinking President Donald Trump is very wrong about this, that his judgment is bad. His impulses need to be foiled. We are the resistance inside the Trump administration and in Trump two, I don’t think people around him are comfortable thinking that. I think there is both a sense that they are there to serve him, but also a sense that there is something in Trump to them, not to me, that exists beyond argumentation. The fact that the tariff policy doesn’t make sense on its face, the fact that what he’s doing seems like a bad idea. Well, if you knew better, then you’d be in the chair. And so the unwillingness to question him because there’s a belief in either a mystic purpose to him or that he has a mystic like beyond argumentation, intuition about things I think has really changed the nature of the constraints around him, or the absence of constraints around him. Yeah, I think there’s also a way in which mystic drama of his return to power is also projected back onto his first term. So where the experience of Trump’s first term, not just for liberals and Democrats, but for a lot of Republicans, was obviously chaotic and bizarre and difficult. And so on. But there were ways in which the results of that term were better than people anticipated. I think certainly they were better than I anticipated. I expected again, as a columnist observer economic crisis and foreign policy crisis to define Trump’s first four years in office. And prior to COVID, they didn’t. The economy was in good shape. I think you can make a case that his foreign policy in the first term worked better than Biden’s. I think you can make a strong case, actually, that it worked better than Biden’s foreign policy. And I think what’s happened now is that not just people around him in the White House, but also congressional Republicans, people who would have doubts about the tariffs and so on have combined the mystical drama with surprisingly successful first term record, put them together and said it’s both that Trump has some kind of mystic intuition about what to do. And it’s also that we doubted him before, but it all worked out O.K. Now, obviously the problem with that is that one of the reasons it worked out O.K was precisely that there were a bunch of people in the White House the first time around who didn’t have a mystical sense of Trump’s his goals or anything like that. And that is, I think, very clearly what is missing this time around. There are people in the White House who could play that role. I think a lot of people expected, Scott percent, the Secretary of the Treasury, or Marco Rubio, the Secretary of State, to play the kind of role that Gary Cohn and Steve Mnuchin and HR McMaster played in the first term. But no one is actually playing that role as far as anyone can see. And so, in an odd way, the Yeah, the very success of Trump as man of destiny is unmaking the conditions that made his first term, a success, but that is itself like a dramatic arc. Like if you were writing oh, it’s all very different. You were writing if you’re writing the novel of the story of hubris. And nemesis, that would be a characteristic way that hubris and nemesis would manifest themselves. Well, we tend to think of fortune now as synonymous with luck. But you go back to Greek mythology, and when you are touched by fortune, when you get a fortune, when you speak to the Oracle, it often doesn’t work out that well. You get a clear prophecy that seems like it foretells your success. And laced inside of that is your downfall. I think what kind of story. What kind of mystic structure you believe we’re in. Is it one that is providential? Or is it one where the gods often laugh at human design. Well, I mean, I think a mistake that I think some religious people make is to see a kind of force of destiny at work in a particular figure and assume that force of destiny must mean that God, the author of history, wants you to be on that person’s side directly. But in fact, if you read, let’s say, the Old Testament. There’s all kinds of moments when God is working through figures to accomplish something in the world, or to move history or the drama, the drama of salvation history, to put it in Christian terms, right in a particular direction. But it doesn’t mean that the instrument that God is working through is, in fact, the Messiah or the chosen one, right. Like if God sends the Babylonians to chastise the wicked Kings of Israel, it doesn’t mean that you’re supposed to necessarily say Oh, hail Nebuchadnezzar. You are. You are the chosen one. Sometimes there are forces, I think. I think you can see Trump in several different lights. You could say he’s a man of destiny, and therefore he is bringing about in some weird way that we didn’t see coming, the new American golden age. And this is obviously what a lot of people are on the center, right. Wanted to believe, especially when it became clear that he was returning to power. Or you could say he’s a great man of history who’s unlocking some change that was necessary. But bringing chaos in order to do it right. So, I wrote a lot about the concept of decadence. This idea that the West, the developed world, was stuck in these kind of cycles and needed to break out somehow. But the reality is often can’t break out of decadence without a big, big mess. So maybe Trump is the agent of that mess, but it doesn’t mean, a good person. Or finally, it could just be chastisement for everyone. All are punished. As Shakespeare said, I think all of those possibilities have to be taken seriously as readings of the Trump phenomenon. How well do you remember Batman begins. I remember it, but so as a person, the League of shadows, right. Destroying Gotham. I’ve had this joke in my head often in the past couple of months. As somebody whose mythic analogies tend to come from the Marvel or DC universe more than the old or the New Testament. There’s just like, convinced me we’re not being governed by the League of shadows. And I went back and I rewatched the piece where Ra’s Ghul reveals the whole plan. And he says, look, we’ve infiltrated every layer of Gotham’s power structure. The League of shadows has been a check against human corruption for thousands of years. We sacked Rome, loaded trade ships with plague rats, burned London to the ground. Every time a civilization reaches the pinnacle of its decadence, we return to restore the balance. We tried to do this through financial engineering and destroy Gotham’s economy. It didn’t quite work. Now we’re back for number two. And the fact that we are here is proof of your decadence, right. The fact that we could do this, get this close shows that you deserve what we are about to do to you. Yes And I’m not saying we are actually being governed by the League of shadows. But when you brought up the decadence, there is a dimension of that to me when you think about this in those almost like narrative terms, a reflection of very dark sides of our own society. Well, and I mean, I’ve carried on a couple of different running arguments throughout the Trump era that are going to continue, I guess. And one is with people on the right who have a League of shadows view of the overall situation. It’s like things, things are so bad that you might as well unleash chaos, right. And this you saw a lot of this in response to the tariffs. People mostly on social media. Not real politicians don’t say this, but people on social media who are like, fine, we need a 10 year reset of the whole global economy because things are so bad and so on. And I spent a lot of time disagreeing with those people. I would prefer not to take the black pill. But I’ve also spent time disagreeing with the kind of liberals and sometimes, never-trump Republican critics of Trump, who I feel like don’t quite grasp why he’s successful and what you need to do in response, because I don’t think he could be this successful if well, if it were enough to just elect Joe Biden to fix, to fix our problems. Well, clearly that didn’t work. It didn’t work. We tried that and definitely tried to elect him twice to fix our problems was not the winning move. I was saying a couple of months ago to Barry Weiss’s podcast, and she had Louise Perry, who’s a British conservative gender and sexuality writer. And Perry made this argument that I’ve been thinking about where she said that the difference between Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate is that Peterson is a Christian and Tate is a pagan. And I think this might be unfair to historic pagans, but the argument she is making depends on it depends on the pagans, but also depends on the Christians. But the argument she was making is that Peterson is, at least in his ethic, somebody who thinks A lot about the week, who cherishes women. Tate is more interested in power, in dominance in driving his enemies before him and fathering a lot of children from a lot of people, potentially. And I’ve thought about that question, that war between, again, crude paganism and Christianity as really playing out right now on the right. And in the Trump administration, there are ways in which those strands seem braided through everything. The drive for power, for a renewed 19th century masculinity versus the more Christian dimensions of it. There’s, in a way Vance as an emblem of the Christian side of the administration. Musk is an emblem of its pagan side with his many kids from many different women. Trump is somebody who, in his both traditionalism like as a person and also his brashness and will to power as a person has both threads inside himself at the same time. Maybe, I think I mean, honestly, I think Trump may have come to some conception of belief in God after the assassination attempt. I just observing his comments a little bit. But I think of Trump as just persistently as a kind of pagan or heathen figure, much more than he is than he is a Christian figure, notwithstanding the attempts to claim him as a kind of King David or Emperor Constantine. There’s an idea that you get from religious conservative supporters of Trump that you have these figures in the Bible or Christian history who are rulers, who are sinful in various ways, but maybe in a way like I’ve been describing advance God’s cause despite their sins and failings. I don’t really think of Trump that way, but he is committed in an explicit way to Christianity and Trump. To me, the bargain with Trump has always been for religious conservatives, some mix of protection and support, a transactional bargain, and then more recently, a kind of hope that some kind of renewal of American dynamism can bring religion itself back with it, which I will say is a hope that I have indulged, indulged in myself that it’s like, O.K, you have different varieties of Christianity out there, and you don’t want to ally with the Andrew Tates, but you do want to ally with the people who have, big hopes for the future rather than a woke progressivism. That just seems inflected with cultural despair, that would be an argument that I think a Christian who was trying to explain to themselves how they find themselves in alliance with Elon Musk might say, right. Like, better. Elon, who has some good desires and believes that humanity is good in some way and wants a more dynamic future, better that than pure pessimism. The climate change is going to kill us all, and structural racism means we deserve it kind of perspective that would be the argument. Let me ask you about the idea that what you just described, though, is pure pessimism. Putting aside the idea that climate change will kill us all, which I don’t believe, I think most people, even on the left, don’t believe. They believe there’s a way out. You just have to really work for it. You give at the end of your book an account of why you’re a Christian and why you’re a Catholic, and why you find it persuasive. And I find your account of it very moving. It’s a thing that appeals to me about Christianity. And the account you give is about both the strangeness and the radicalism of Jesus Christ as a figure. How uncomfortable it is to read him. How challenging, how it’s a religion about meekness. All of the rich man has a better chance of the camels, a better chance of fitting through the eye of the needle than the rich man of getting into heaven that there’s always been a radicalism in that. And I Yeah, I mean, I know the Meeke will inherit the Earth is a famous line. I would say renunciation more than meekness. But there’s a godliness of those who do not have power Yes And at the same time, then there is this administration I think is very self-consciously tries to be frame itself as Christian, but people in it are like JD Vance. And many, many people in the administration do not see in them in the way they act in this world, this love of those who do not have power. There’s the kind of putting out of memes where they’ve made a Studio Ghibli meme out of an immigrant crying. There’s something about the interplay here of a self-conscious Christianity and a self-conscious, mimetic cruelty that both feels like very appalling to me, but also unchristian, as I understand it. Yeah Yeah. I mean, I think the Christian, the aspect of populism. Conservative populism, right wing populism, whatever you want to call it, that does see itself in clear continuity with Christian ideas and Christian views, basically holds that it is speaking on behalf of the weak and the oppressed people who don’t have a voice in society. And those people are the native born working class of the Western world who have been asked to bear inappropriate burdens, beginning with economic. I’m just framing the case. Right Beginning beginning with the economic burdens imposed by Free trade regimes that sent their jobs overseas and continuing with the burden of. Again, this is the argument of social disorder and breakdown associated with the drug trade in a globalized world, the free movement of peoples that transforms cities and neighborhoods and in ways that, again, fall most heavily on lower middle class Americans and are of avoided and evaded by the upper class. This is the narrative is basically that the beneficiaries of globalization are the equivalent of the rich person in various of Jesus’s parables. And certainly Jesus does not hesitate at various moments in the Gospels to say pretty harsh things about people who have betrayed their leadership role. So one reason I pushed back on meekness is Yes, Jesus uses the word meek, but Jesus himself is not a meek figure. And you can go through the New Testament and find plenty of cases where Jesus says incredibly harsh things about powerful. Mostly about powerful people. About sinners. Where Jesus cleanses the temple and drives, drives the moneylenders out and curses the fig tree that doesn’t bear fruit. You’re moving. You’re moving to the powerful here. What I’m asking about is the treatment of the powerless, which, even if you believe and I don’t contest this point that many, many, many people in this country have borne undue burdens. Like, I understand that as central to liberal politics, too. It is the cruelty with which poor immigrants are treated. The kind of laughing about it that it’s fine if you want to say they should be unkind to a New York Times’ columnist, I more mean that there is an embrace of mimetic cruelty, not aimed at the powerful, but aimed at other forms of the powerless, where as I understand the radicalism of this ethic, it is that you should whether whatever your border policy, there should be a profound compassion for Haitians who came here fleeing some of the most desperate poverty in the world to work hard at jobs to build up a life for their families. There’s something about the weaponization of cruelty against the powerless. It is what I am trying to get at. No and I think as I said before, I think you have what you’re describing as Christian and pagan tendencies braided together in the Trump administration. And I think that but many of the things that you describe absolutely reflect more of a pagan sensibility than a Christian one. But I agree with you that particular steps the Trump administration has taken in this term are not Christian, anti-Christian. And I think the forces, I mean, I think it started with the cuts to foreign aid. I think you can completely justify some kind of renovation of the foreign aid program. Christians are not bound to support any particular set of programs. But I think the way in which the foreign aid programs were reshuffled and cut off and so on, was a failure of Christian duty in a pretty obvious way. That and the core motivations there were just different from the motivations, the evangelical motivations of the Bush era and reflected, frankly, just overall the decline of Christianity in American life since then. I will just say, though since we’re taking a pretty hard line of critique, I think you watch this happen all the time on the left in different ways over the last five or five or 10 years, where people who I considered sensible, good, well-meaning, moderate people were in a coalition with people who had more intensity, more passion, more zeal, who made a certain set of demands on them. That led, again, people I knew and admired and respected to I think, compromise their own values in ways that also had of real world material consequences. I don’t want to relitigate, I don’t want to relitigate wokeness. But if I think this is part of the nature of politics in a landscape where there’s no kind of religious consensus, there’s no kind of moral consensus, right. Is that forces that appear to have energy behind them. Again, to go back to where we started, world historical energy, perhaps, will draw people who have convictions that should put them in tension with those views into certain kinds of compromises. But I agree, I absolutely think I do not admire the way that the Trump administration approaches any of the policies that you’re talking about from humanitarian aid to the deportations to Salvador. I guess, to me, one of the things I’m getting at in life broadly, but in the policies specifically or in the rhetoric, in the comportment, I think a lot about JD Vance, who’s a person in many ways, I think should have had some protection from this. I think he is Christian. I think he does think a lot about virtue and ethics. And you brought up the tariffs. I don’t there’s anything on Christian about the tariffs. I think they’re bad economics, not bad religion. And a lot of these policies I actually believe that about I think people can have very mistaken views on policy because they are just wrong about what the policies will do in the world. I have had mistaken views on policies because I was wrong about what the policies would do in the world, or the they would be carried out. It’s more the compatibility between what I think has become a dominant tone, and I think we’re in a unstable era in terms of what I might call our political manners. Matt yglesias had a piece about the way a lot of his Hitler revisionism is beginning to happen, out of a kind of feeling that we have over penalized questions about race, questions of anti-Semitism, and that in order to widen the boundaries of debate, you have to have on World War II revisionists. And there’s a sense that this politics of manners didn’t work. And so politics of no manners needs to be tried now. And I think Donald Trump has been an innovator and a pioneer in that. And it’s created a lot of memetic imitators who, on the hand, don’t have some of his I don’t lightness or authenticity or funniness, but on the other, it’s just that I think I am, weirdly, even though I’m not myself religious, a little bit idealistic about religion, I feel about my own religion, which I think should create very profound sympathy for refugees. And that has not been something I’ve seen in the past couple of years. And I think it’s a Christianity where it feels to me like it should create a kind of buffer against greed and cruelty that I often see broken when it would be politically viable to break it. So Well, 2, two things. One is that, Yes, you are describing the story of both Judaism and Christianity’s engagement with history and fallen human nature. And this is something that is, in fact advertised in both the Old Testament and the New Testament and all of history since. Is that the story of the Jewish people in the Old Testament is not a story of people who are chosen by God and given a bunch of Commandments, and then obeyed them all to story of people who remain, the chosen people, despite failing in every possible way, including to fit our conversation, repeated flirtations with heathenism and paganism and idolatry. And then you can obviously tell a similar story. The New Testament Christians don’t have political power, but the apostles are always screwing up and Messing up. And then, of course, the history of Christianity is entanglement with political power is filled with sins and failings that, again, this era’s set, are of not atypical, I guess. But then the second point that I want to push you on is, what kind of argument is this that you think you’re going to win with religious believers who disagree with you. You’re like, well, I don’t believe in your religion, but I really wish that you would follow your religion so that your politics were more aligned with mine. Like, that’s just not much of an argument at all. And I think to the extent that all of liberalism, the ideology that you subscribe to trades on inherited ideas from Christianity about morality and equality and so on, while you’ve jettisoned the portrait of the universe, the metaphysical structure that gives them meaning. I think it’s really hard from that point of view for you to get anywhere in arguments with people who still believe in that structure, because you’re essentially saying, I’ve stripped away the conceptual framework that makes your moral ideas make sense. But now I’m going to complain that you’re not living up to your moral ideas. I just think that’s a really weak argument. Oh, but I’m not arguing it. Well, you’re saying it to me. I’m right here. I’m a Christian. I’m right here. You’re arguing. You’re expressing sorrowful disappointment that Christians are not living up to a worldview that you think is false. Well, I think parts of it are. Well, I am unconvinced on parts of it. We’ll talk about the view of the cosmos in a minute. And I’m not trying to offend you here. I’m actually asking what Ezra has anything about. Our long relationship suggests that you could possibly offend me. I’ve known you long enough to know when you’re getting a bit heated. That’s totally different headedness. I mean, as I was saying, the New Testament is filled with heated encounters. I don’t think a thing I’m saying here is going to convince somebody on the Christian right to turn around their view of Donald Trump. I am genuinely curious how somebody of your politics and your religious background interprets somebody like JD Vance. So I’m asking you questions about it. Christianity does not provide some kind of incredibly strong bulwark against powerful people doing the kinds of things that powerful people do, which means self-interested conquest of various kinds and so on. What it does provide is an ongoing internal critique that those powerful people have to wrestle with and address in ways that are fairly unique in the historical relationship of power and piety. So if you look at something like, to take the most famous example, maybe the Spanish conquest of the Americas, right. In terms of what is actually done in the course of the Spanish conquest of the Americas. You can find, plenty of terrible crimes that you, would say, well, what good is your religion, if it licenses. If your civilization commits these kind of crimes. But from the very beginning, in Spain itself, in the heart of super Catholic, counter-reformation era Spain, there’s an ongoing and agonizing and sometimes intensely legal and practical, sometimes high level philosophical theological debate that subjects the behavior of the Spanish conquistadors and others to this kind of sustained critique and leads to at various times, sometimes successful, mostly unsuccessful reform efforts driven by the Catholic monarchy of Spain and ultimately builds out and influences everything from the anti-slavery movement in the 18th and 19th century that’s ultimately successful, down to contemporary ideas about human rights and international law. That, again, today’s secular liberals take for granted as a kind of scripture. All of that emerges out of the efforts of serious Christians in a context of profound historical temptation and constant sinfulness, to generate from within the resources of their religion. And I think if you take the Trump administration, for instance, it’s not as though you cannot find Christian critiques of Trump administration cruelty. They just are not at the moment the primary thing I would expect. I mean, we’ll find out. We’re three months into a kind of shock and awe administration. I think that and people have been, I think people have been baffled and surprised by some of the turns that things have taken. But certainly people I take seriously within conservative Christianity have spoken out against things like, the cuts to humanitarian aid or anything like that. But again, I completely agree with you that history supplies constant tests of what your religion is for, and there’s no end until the end, right to the testing. And sometimes, sometimes you succeed. More often you fail. But hopefully you do something that has good effects down the road, and sometimes you fail entirely. And then maybe God sifts you and finds you wanting. I’m not kidding here. This is actually like it is important to see every moment as a potential moral test that you might well be failing. I am a conservative Christian. You could say I’m a member of the Christian right for your purposes. As Christianity has weakened in American life, a really hard question has become who is the most dangerous of your different enemies or who is most threatening to the Christian view of the good society. Is it a woke progressivism that wants to. Again, this would just be the narrative, right. I think it wants to abolish basic ideas about differences between the sexes that supports abortion at any stage in pregnancy. That’s hostile to the basic religious liberties of Christians. Again, from the conservative Christian point of view, is it. Donald Trump’s populism with its heathen cruelties? Is it transhumanism like, is the final boss of this era that religious believers will have to confront? Actually Silicon Valley. And if it is like, can you make alliances within Silicon Valley. Is it better to be with Elon Musk and his 117 children than to be with, some other people involved. So Neuralink is it’s pushing transhumanism forward very fast, if it can. That’s no, there’s a lot of. But there’s also different transhumanism like which what. Anyway, all I’m all no, these are actually these are things, that I myself am profoundly uncertain about in this moment Like who. What is the greatest danger from a Christian perspective to the future of the human race. I’m not entirely sure. So a big part of your book, as I read it, is about what happens when elite society becomes hostile in its view of the world, to the human impulse to seek a picture of reality that runs deeper than materialism. What happens when the seekers have nowhere to go. When organized religion weakens? When or not know where to go. What happens when they are not channeled into organized religion. And what happens when elite society becomes too materialistic? And I understand for you, and you can tell me if this is wrong, that one of the forces I think that you believe is driving the era is a kind of frustrated, seeking a desire to re-enchant the world like that has run into an elite culture, maybe its apex being the Obama administration and that moment in American life. It’s the Ezra apex. Ezra, let’s be honest here, although that well, we’ll get into this. I always joke that the difference between you and me is more that I’m you’re a Catholic and I’m a Californian than that I’m a materialist, and you’re not. Because but one can use the word materialist in different ways to 1, when you use it in this context. What do you I mean, the view that all of existence, life, the universe, and everything is finally reducible to matter in motion, that matter is primary and mind is secondary rather than the other way around. I don’t mean materialism in terms of Madonna’s material girl or something like that, although the two can be connected. So one of the various arguments in my book. Is that disenchantment is fake, fundamentally right. The idea that you can enter a secular. Age where once upon a time, people had wild religious experiences. But now we inhabit the iron cage of modernity, and all of those are off the table. That just doesn’t describe reality. Mystical experience, religious experience. It’s not just the impulse. I think secular liberals are very comfortable saying oh, well, there’s always a religious impulse, but it’s more than that. It’s that people have encounters with God, whatever God may be, some kind of higher reality that enters them and transforms them and gives them visions and gives them intense experiences. Or maybe they have them on the verge of death and come back to tell about them. This is just a feature of human life. It’s a very profound and important feature of human life. Maybe it can be explained in non-religious terms. Maybe there’s some reductive explanation, but there isn’t a good one on offer right now. And so the persistence of that means that religion always regenerates itself, because even under conditions where almost nobody is committed to a particular church or Creed, people are going to go on having dramatic encounters. Like someone like Barbara Ehrenreich, whose famous I had her on for this book. Famous left liberal writer, wrote a whole book called famous atheist. Yes famous atheist called Living with a wild God. And it was just a book about a very secular person who had a lot of religious experiences, experiences that if you went and read William James or read like a medieval Catholic mystic or something, would be totally familiar, and she didn’t have a framework, a conceptual framework to fully process them and wrote a great book, really interesting book about you tell the story that you tell in your book. I don’t remember the man’s name, but he’s the editor of skeptics magazine or something like that. So this is Michael Shermer, who is one the more famous professional, skeptical debunkers of religious claims, supernatural things. And so on. And he in one of his books. But he’s told this story several times 2 is great credit. He was getting married and his wife had. I’m going to butcher this slightly, but had a great uncle who had been very close to her and was the kind of person who would have given her away at the wedding, but had passed away. So she was feeling lonely and isolated, and they had a radio that had come from him and the radio was broken. Didn’t work, had never worked. Schirmer had tried to fix it. It didn’t. It just didn’t work. It was broken. And at the end of the wedding, during the reception, they heard music from the back of the house and went back into a back room. And there was the radio playing a love song. And I think transitioned from that to some kind of classical music for the later in the evening and then shut off and never worked again. And this experience affected Shermer. And again, to his credit. It was like evidence. Evidence against interest. And I think, again, you have to trust, as always with these stories, right. You have to trust his general reliability and so on, that it wasn’t just that there was a battery that was jiggled or something like the radio really didn’t work. And really never worked again. There really was no obvious material way that this could have happened. Shermer, in the end, works out. He wants to have a theory of the multiverse where in some different timeline, much like in the movie Interstellar, his wife’s great uncle is capable of accessing our timeline. And to Shermer, this is an escape from supernatural explanations. But one reason to just tell that story is that as I think because I was joking about your show being the epitome of secularization, the apogee, whatever. People have experiences like this all the time. This is why I’m not a materialist. This is a very commonplace kind of experience. Not super commonplace. You’re not going to have one tomorrow. Probably but this stuff just is part of the warp and woof of reality. And so to finally, long winded answer your original question, I think what happens in conditions when you have weak institutional religions and a secular expert class that is not, militantly atheistic, but says officially these things don’t happen, is that people feel like they can’t really go all the way up to the creator God, Yahweh, Jehovah, outside of time and space. And they start looking for intermediate powers to become a kind of locus for their own spiritual impulses, stuff with psychedelics, stuff with literal paganism, including stuff on the right. And then the interesting zone, in a way, which is the place where science fiction ideas or science scientific ideas meet a kind of slightly supernaturalist sense of the machine God as this power that into which we are going to commend, commend ourselves. But yeah. And I think that tendency again, this is what Christians would say. But that tendency is bad. It’s not that secondary spiritual powers don’t exist in the universe. There are in fact, angels and demons and things like that. Saints and powers that other powers, perhaps more mysterious still, but not all of those powers have human good in mind, and it’s better to approach them through one of the big old traditional religions that tries to subject them to a kind of higher ordering and says, let me hold you there, because we’ll get to this. I want to distinguish two arguments that the book could make and that you take one path in particular. So I am somebody who believes deeply in mystery. I am that kind of agnostic where I’m Californian. I’m a Californian. Exactly Yeah. And this first half of the book or first 1/3 of the book is about this. It’s an argument that you, I would call it an argument that you should believe that a kind of New atheist materialism is incompatible with any kind of reasonable understanding of the world and its complexity and its unruliness in the experiences people have in the things that it now increasingly requires you to believe. Like either human consciousness is somehow having some profound effect on quantum physics or if you’re going to take a much more straightforward view of the math, we’re splitting into cannibal. New realities at all times. The implications are getting weirder and weirder. So many podcasts, so many podcasts. I love all that stuff. But so there’s an argument for belief, and then there’s an argument for channeling that belief. And I understand the book to really be about the second argument. I actually think the first argument is pretty straightforward, but it’s about channeling this belief into organized religion. So given the strangeness of everything you just described, and then also given that the big organized religions disagree on many things, a point you make on the book, a few. Yeah why go there, right. Why is it not enough to just say, you should believe that this world is not something we understand how to explain, and you should be open to all these things that violate a materialist intuition about it. Why, say, or what’s the argument for going into organized religion as the answer for such profound unruliness? Well, a couple of things. So first of all, I don’t think that the case for not being a materialist is a case for total unruliness to the contrary, I think part of the case for being a materialist, for not being a materialist, is precisely the order of the universe, right. Like one of the problems that materialism has that you gestured at is accounting for the specific ways in which the universe is ordered, the beauty and precision and symmetry involved, and also, as far as we can tell, the extreme unlikeliness that this particular order would be selected for, unless whoever selected it were interested in, listening to lots of podcasts. No creating planet stars and conscious beings. So you have the religious argument is an argument for overarching structure. And then the ways in which it is weird are not themselves entirely random. Like there are patterns in spiritual experience. Lots of there’s no predictability to it overall, but the kinds of experiences that people have a certain kind of consistency. You can track different kinds of spiritual experiences across different cultures. You can track them in near-death experiences. You can track them in terms of studies of what appear to be miraculous healings and so on. And again, there just seems to be a way in which you have this overarching order. You have some mysterious relationship between our consciousness and that overarching order. And then you have a lot of religious experiences that seem like higher forces trying to be in touch with us and have some kind of relationship with us. That’s the basic picture of that. Again, most of the big religions offer allowing for all their differences. Buddhism and Christianity have quite some pretty substantial differences. But they each describe a universe that’s generally like that. So I want to be careful because when I say I’m a Californian, I’m being jokey about it there often. There are, of course, many Orthodox Jews in California and committed Catholic Christians in California and so on. Absolutely so, but I am very familiar with a kind of California seeker mentality. Yep And I think the answer from that perspective to what you just said is Yes, there are patterns. Yes, there are buckets. There is a consistency or a couple maybe consistencies to near death experiences or to memories that young kids have of what at least some people take to be past lives or things like the radio turning on or. But none of these really fit all, at least not all of them into any of the big religions. They don’t. I’ve read enough of the religions to say that what I describe as the unruliness when I say that, I mean enough things that don’t fit a kind of simplified view of reality that it would make me wonder about materialism. But also I don’t think Judaism explains them all. I don’t think that Catholicism explains them all. I’m not saying I know what does. Hinduism well, Hinduism is big enough. It’s quite big actually. Maybe it explains more. Could I’m not saying that I know what does. What I’m saying is that I’m very sympathetic to how it can kind of spin you into a profound openness. I know many people who have gone there where what it seems to me now is having come to believe in these kinds of things, it’s very hard for them to say where to stop believing. And they now believe a lot of things that are maybe contradictory or there are gurus who are all saying different things, but once you open yourself, it can become hard to close back down. But for them, some of them grew up in a faith tradition. For them, faith tradition didn’t explain too much of what they then began to see or experience or come to believe in. I don’t think any of the traditions have a really good explanation for why we have of weirdly consistent alien abduction experiences, which I don’t believe to be alien abductions, but I’m not sure what to make of them. How do you answer. What is your response to someone like that. Yeah, I mean, I think that there is a balance that you have to strike in looking for a particular religious tradition, right, as opposed to just being a kind of open ended seeker. And you, do you want, I think, a religious tradition that has a set of core values that make sense of a lot of what you’ve described and also a certain degree of flexibility and uncertainty about some of the things that don’t fit into exactly, exactly. It’s world. It’s world picture. But yeah, the wide the wide array of religious experiences. I think just the data on its own should would make you a kind of like the term I use in the book is perennialist. This is the theory that all the great religions encode some of the truth about reality. You kind of can’t go wrong with any of them, as long as they’re big enough and old enough. But none of them are like the fullness, the fullness of truth. I would say, though, just as a Roman Catholic that Roman Catholicism again, one of the things that I appreciate about it is that it has a certain kind of supernatural capaciousness. Not in terms of all its formal doctrines. It’s not like you open up the Catechism of the Catholic Church and they’re like, well, here’s what we think about aliens. I mean, it’s in there, it’s on, but the pages are in the Vatican. There is quite a bit about it in the Vatican. Here’s what we think about it. There is some stuff about that stuff. But if you look at actual the history of Catholic cultures, the zone, for instance, in terms of the afterlife. Zones like purgatory and limbo and so on have some kind of connection to people’s arguments about ghosts and hauntings and that form of the supernatural. Catholic cultures have always been pretty hospitable to ideas about fairies. I don’t know how I’ve ended up on nice New York Times’ podcast, talking about the good people. But the idea of trickster, that there are angels and demons and then there are these weird trickster beings. If you ask me to make a case for catholicism’s capaciousness, I could make that case. But then the other thing is, and this is I’m curious what you think about this. Is that one of the things I argue in the book. And it’s not a provable assertion. But it’s the idea that if there is this overall structure in order to the universe, and if there seem to be higher powers interested in talking to human beings, then maybe you should assume that God is not out to trick you, right. The universe is not a trick. It’s not actually presenting you with this impossible, open ended question. It’s basically, there’s a certain number of big religions. They’ve stood they’ve stood the test of time. They’ve had a pretty powerful shaping influence on human history. Why wouldn’t you go in for one of them rather than saying, in good Californian style like I just have to remain perfectly open, right. I think that if you can accept that the universe might have been created with us in mind, then you should give deference. So I want to say that I loved the book. I really, really enjoyed it. And this was the point where it helped me clarify where my intuitions maybe go very differently, which is, I think at a fundamental level, I expect that anything that is worked at Mass scale across many different institutional regimes as an organized religion is likely to have conformed so much to politics and institutions as to have strayed from how profoundly radical, whatever kind of spiritual truth might exist is. This is a way in which the gambit I had at the beginning about Trump is, was connected to the meat of this conversation. I found the argument that you should assume that a religion’s success over time is going to correlate to some kind of fundamental truth value. I felt you could take that both ways. I felt you could also take it the other way, which is to say that the religions that survive are going to be the ones that are institutionally compatible with many different regimes and often contort themselves into those regimes. And we talked about the Spanish conquest and the Inquisition. I’ve been reading about the Renaissance recently, ADA Palmer’s great book on inventing the Renaissance. And I wouldn’t say the popes of that era cover themselves in Glory. I’ve seen this in I think you could say this about forms of Judaism, about forms of Buddhism, which Buddhism is a much more complicated institutional story than people who have been raised in America on West Coast Spirit Rock. Buddhism, I think, tend to believe there are all these questions where I think that I believe that whatever ultimate truth is out there is going to be extremely inconvenient and strange. And as you said earlier, and something I thought was quite stirring, the sense that every moment might be a moral test, that a religion that took that truly seriously would end up being very incompatible compatible with ruling regimes and would have a lot of trouble from them, which. Of course, at times these religions have, haven’t they. I mean, they’ve often conformed to that as well, right. I guess to see I think you’re making actually precisely the case for different ways, both Judaism and Christianity as probably divinely founded, which is to say, these religions have survived and persisted across multiple different kinds of cultures, multiple different kinds of regimes in each era. Exactly as you say, elements of these religions have made compromises, have intertwined themselves in profound ways. You couldn’t get more intertwined than medieval Catholicism and medieval feudalism. This is like and and I think if you are a secular historian looking at that intertwinement, you’d say probably whenever feudalism breaks up, Christianity is going to go away to or Judaism. Judaism is a religion of Temple prayer, religion that’s centered on the temple and the Holy of Holies and everything else. You look at that as a secular historian, you’re like, well, obviously, if some empire will call it the Romans comes along and destroys that, then, Judaism is going to disappear too, right. That’s not what happens. Instead, you have these periods of intertwinement that are then shattered in some way. And in each case, one I mean, the first thing to say is that the radicalism that you describe persists in those eras as well. And again, to go back to the point I was making earlier, this is something the religions themselves advertise the Old Testament, the Hebrew Bible is a story where the Jews are failing your tests. The tests that you as recliners set. And you’re like, well, if this religion was really from God, they probably wouldn’t all become idolaters. And they’re like, Ezra, here’s our Holy book. It’s all about how we became idolaters. But guess what then God did something new and people did something new. And the story continued. And I mean, I just think what you’re offering, I think you think it’s I don’t want to impute. I think, yeah, I think you think it’s. You think it’s AI think you think you’re setting God free a bit from what you see as the corruptions of Trump era Christianity or medieval Inquisition era Christianity. And you’re like, no, God is bigger than that. Therefore, a religion that is always getting entangled with worldly power, that can’t be where God is. But what you end up with is a counsel of despair, where you’re like, well, the only religion that would be worthy of God is one that would be exterminated within like 50 years of its founding by the cruel state. That’s you’re ending up saying that a religion good enough to join could not exist on the Earth. Well, I don’t think I’m saying a religion good enough to join could not exist in the Earth. I’m not trying to set God free from anything because I genuinely am not sure. It’s not a pose for me. I’m not. I think a couple of times in this think I’m making an argument when I’m actually genuinely confused or if not genuinely confused, genuinely uncertain. I find the uncertainty radical, and I will say within my own belief system, to the extent it counts as a belief system, which I’m not sure it should just. Mystery and uncertainty is both very much at its heart and to me, very comforting. When I was younger, I just had a crippling fear of death. Just really, truly terrible mortality. Anxiety and somehow what eased it for me was eventually coming to the view that I just was never going to know. And I don’t know why I found that comforting, and I don’t know why that is stuck, but I did, and to some degree it it has. So when I say this, I am actually not saying that I think I have some answer here that you don’t, I really don’t. Well, I’m actually testing my intuition against yours. I want to hear your answers. You think I’m right and I’m not. I’m not trying to be too aggressive, Ezra. I think that as from reading the book, I think that the intuition that a lot of modern people have about that even if you concede that materialism is too limited, there is just this fundamental unknowability hanging over everything. I think that intuition is mistaken. I think it is correct about certain aspects of religion. I think there are issues in religion and questions in religion that hang over every tradition imperfectly resolved. I’m not here to tell you I’ve resolved the problem of evil. The problem of evil is a real problem. It’s a real issue. Again, I think it’s an issue that’s there and acknowledged and wrestled with throughout the Old and New Testament. But I don’t think you’re going to sit down and just reason your way into a solution to that problem. I do think, though, that you can get a little bit further, just even in the example that you cited, I mean, I don’t know what your metaphysical perspectives as a kid were, but I certainly agree that I would personally find it more comforting to believe that death is a mystery than to be Richard Dawkins. And believe that death is just the absolute end and never could be anything else. I just think it is, in fact more probable than not that after you die, you will, meet God, whatever God is, and be asked to account for your life. And so on. And that’s not always that’s not inherently comforting. Yeah you and I have had this conversation once before. It can be quite terrifying, but I think it is. It’s quite terrifying. But I think that it is something that is reasonable to believe. That should give you a little bit more than just the sense of mystery. And more than that, I think it is what God himself, in his infinite mystery and power, wants you to believe which is why he has me here talking to you, I said. I’ve often thought of you in my life. Is heaven sent, Ross No, I mean, it doesn’t mean good things about my final destination. I’m just. I’m just an instrument. But I guess the argument I’m just making is, I think one can get just a little bit further than just mystery itself. One argument you make in the book, you give the example, the canonical example of if you believe in a merciful God, how do you explain the child with leukemia. And you basically say that in any reasonable understanding of God, any reasonable understanding of religion, you can’t possibly understand the plan. You can’t possibly. I mean, we were in a way, talking about this with Donald Trump, that the unfolding of things will always be so far beyond the human mind that the idea that you have poked out a contradiction is a little bit ridiculous. I actually agree with that. But then I think that when it comes to the organized religions, you say a few times that you just have trouble believing a providential God would allow these religions that are wrong, that are wayward to expand and thrive in the way that they have. And I think an intuition that probably people like me have is that it. It is hard to say that some things can be resolved by, well, a God who is good would not allow x to happen. And then some things have to be resolved with you can’t possibly understand why God is allowing x to happen or to happen. And so questioning it or being unwilling to take this on faith is unreasonable. Yeah I don’t think you should take on faith that the major world religions are providential. And I think you could imagine yourself in a world where if you lived, if you lived in a world where the dominant set of religions all practiced human sacrifice. And I mean, you can imagine that kind of situation. I think the case for taking the big religions seriously, therefore, you’ve pushed me on this effectively. Yeah can’t just rest on their size and scale alone. You do also have to think that in the aggregate they’ve had what you as someone who has particular moral intuitions given by God, one hopes at some level have had a positive impact on the world and shaped it in positive ways and and also that they have. And this is also important to my argument that they do have real overlaps. And I think that they do. I think the major world religions, if you look at them just and analyze, the ethical perspective of the major world religions, you do see a certain kind of overlap. So yeah, I think it is not enough to say these things are big and present, and you have to take it on faith that they’re part of that. They’re where God wants you to be. You do also have to actually look at them and pass some kind of judgment on them. Yes, as I so often do, I want to go back to fairies, please. One of the other arguments you make is that the I should call them the good. You don’t want to attract too much of their attention. So why don’t you call them the good people. The good people. Which actually, I will admit I am unfamiliar here and did not know that. So you’ve come here. Forgive me. You’ve come here to learn. Well, actually, this is exactly what I’m about to say. What just happened. Which, depending on whether or not you believe in the good people, I guess, which is that one of your other arguments is that if you come to the view that the world has supernatural or extrahuman forces, intelligences, agents, et cetera, If you are a seeker of that one thing the major religions have, which is, I think it’s fair to say, has been largely downplayed in a lot of modern society is actually a belief about those dangers and arguably experience with those questions, including maybe what to call and not call the good people. And that one of your arguments here is that there is more spiritual danger once you accept some of these premises than people often give credit to that. It’s not just about belief or unbelief, it’s about the possibility of falling into the wrong beliefs, of listening to the wrong voices, of following the tricksters, of following more demonic forces. And one thing you appreciate about Catholicism is a little bit more openness to that world of forces. I just found that interesting. I always find your kind of openness to the occult to be, I don’t want openness to the occult is not what I want. That’s not how you want to talk about it. Well, I mean, the reality is that in the book as I have an entire chapter on supernatural experience and weirdness. And I actually debated with myself how much to write about things that are explicitly demonic. Catholicism obviously has its special focus on this through the Office of The Exorcist. There’s lots of literature on the demonic and demonic possession, and I ended up feeling quite uncomfortable writing about it too much. And so there’s a couple paragraphs and some footnotes, and people who are interested in it can follow that material. But there is a kind of Yeah, there’s a kind of balance that you want to strike as just an observer or a writer between of acknowledging those kind of weirder and darker and more disturbing realities, but not like focusing too much attention on them. And maybe my joke. Or is it about saying the good people. It’s We both are not joking. Part of that. Part of that. Hey, now, part of that perspective. But I mean, this is. Yeah, this is there are one thing I’m absolutely certain about is that if there is a realm of supernatural experience that is real, that is not just your brain chemistry. You can access it, maybe through altering your brain chemistry and taking ayahuasca and whatever. But if that reality is real, it is 100 percent dangerous dangerous. Dangerous and especially why. 100 percent well, not hundreds. I don’t mean like it’s. I don’t mean every aspect of it is dangerous, but I mean, it is certainly dangerous. There are dangers. There are. There are serious dangers within it. Tell me about your views on psychedelics. I might not. So I have never taken psychedelics. I’ve never been at an ayahuasca retreat. This is entirely based on readings and conversations. My view is that some psychedelics almost certainly open you to contact with non-human spiritual entities, and that they do so in a way that is different from other forms of spiritual experience, in that it’s like, again, not in every case, but it can be a shortcut. But that shortcut means that you’re entering these landscapes without the kind of preparation that not only the traditional religions, but the shamans who use ayahuasca in the Amazon or wherever they use it would say is necessary for these kind of encounters. And there’s a Twitter joke or a social media joke about getting one shotted by a six dimensional Mesoamerican demon or something. Something like that people make about these kind of drugs. And that’s a joke. But I don’t think it’s entirely a joke. And so I think that Yeah, I think that possibility is real. And it does not at the same time mean that lots of people can’t take these drugs and have mystical experiences that just convince them that there’s more to reality than just the material, and that is a correct view. So in that sense, the drugs teach you something real about the world, but it can be like anything in human life. And one of the points I try and stress is that religion is not like out there in some compartment where it’s totally different from every other thing. And you can’t argue about it the way you argue about other things. And so on. In other aspects of human life, dealing with the supernatural is like dealing with the natural. There are good things and bad things and dangers and opportunities, and you just want to be aware of that before you throw yourself into a realm of experience that you might not be prepared for. But I haven’t done it. And you have. Or have you say, what have you. Have you Yes So you have immediate, immediate information that I may not have, but one could argue that doing those kind of drugs and coming back from it, not with a sense that you’ve been possessed by a Mesoamerican demon, but coming back with a sense that man, there’s more to the universe than I thought, but I can never possibly figure out the truth. Also, could be a deception that has been imposed upon you. It could be all kinds of things. I will say, without going into any detail, that I had once an incredibly profound and mystical experience. That was, to my genuine shock, completely Jewish in nature and not from a side of Judaism. That is a side that I had been brought up in and that I have never been able to shake. And that has made me much more open to my own tradition than I would have thought. And it actually. Can you give me a bit more. No O.K. That’s fair. But what I will say about it is that. O.K O.K. Wait wait wait. I’ve done a lot. I’v